From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Sun Jul 4 10:08:13 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange Message-ID: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional IMAP server. Can I use Alpine for this access? It looks like I can set it up starting with S U but because it's a once for all change I dont want to be left without Alpine access. Using alpine 2.23.2 on windows 10 (x64) -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BL10@cam.ac.uk From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sun Jul 4 10:21:20 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: > My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional > IMAP server. > > Can I use Alpine for this access? Dear Barry, you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other than that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail can be downloaded from https://davmail.sourceforge.net -- Eduardo From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Sun Jul 4 11:05:36 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: :>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: :> :>> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional :>> IMAP server. :>> :>> Can I use Alpine for this access? :> :>Dear Barry, :> :> you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be :>configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other than :>that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail can be :>downloaded from :> :>https://davmail.sourceforge.net :> :> so I cant just use the M S U interface as I saw reported somewhere? -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BL10@cam.ac.uk From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sun Jul 4 11:08:15 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: > so I cant just use the M S U interface as I saw reported somewhere? That interface has to do with setting up XOAUTH2 or BEARERNAME authentication. I do not know if davmail requires authorization, but that would not be set up through Alpine. -- Eduardo From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Sun Jul 4 11:20:56 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: <9cca8b98-f54-5613-3186-6759343c4ec9@cam.ac.uk> On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: :>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: :> :>> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional :>> IMAP server. :>> :>> Can I use Alpine for this access? :> :>Dear Barry, :> :> you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be :>configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other than :>that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail can be :>downloaded from :> :>https://davmail.sourceforge.net :> :> At the moment I dont have an Exchange account (as I said its a once for all change and I want to experiment first). A friend will let me try to set up access to his account. I need a reassurance however that if I use davmail to mediate an IMAP access it cannot damage whatever access he is using (Outlook). Do you know the answer to that one? -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BL10@cam.ac.uk From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Sun Jul 4 11:22:04 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: :>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: :> :>> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional :>> IMAP server. :>> :>> Can I use Alpine for this access? :> :>Dear Barry, :> :> you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be :>configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other than :>that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail can be :>downloaded from :> :>https://davmail.sourceforge.net :> :> seems to be http:// and not https:// -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BL10@cam.ac.uk From andrew at aitchison.me.uk Sun Jul 4 11:52:22 2021 From: andrew at aitchison.me.uk (Andrew C Aitchison) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: <69cef85b-9a10-7ab6-4b66-acdc5162e4ba@aitchison.me.uk> > On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: > >> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional >> IMAP server. >> >> Can I use Alpine for this access? >> >> It looks like I can set it up starting with S U but because it's a once >> for all change I dont want to be left without Alpine access. I would talk to the university people (I can give you some names off-line). There are enough variations on "Exchange" and related Microsoft mail services that it is worth having the right details before you start. On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: > you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be > configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other > than that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail > can be downloaded from > > https://davmail.sourceforge.net IIUC the "S U" option will help for a Microsoft mail service that supports IMAP but with their improved (not)password model. davmail is an option for Microsoft mail services/servers that have blocked IMAP. * It is reasonable for them to call it "improved", but this is not a claim that IMAP is insecure. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Sun Jul 4 13:37:50 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> <70f6c8af-78c-5970-c494-47823016d07@yandex.com> Message-ID: <1c68df94-96dd-1288-5126-9707b48496@cam.ac.uk> I downloaded davmain from sourceforge and tried opening it. Literally nothing happened (that I saw!). What have I missed? On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: :>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: :> :>:>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, Barry Landy wrote: :>:> :>:>> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional :>:>> IMAP server. :>:>> :>:>> Can I use Alpine for this access? :>:> :>:>Dear Barry, :>:> :>:> you can try davmail. I have tried it in Linux and it is slow and must be :>:>configured to not to expunge messages upon marking them as deleted. Other than :>:>that, it should give you access to your email through Alpine. Davmail can be :>:>downloaded from :>:> :>:>https://davmail.sourceforge.net :>:> :>:> :> :>seems to be http:// and not https:// :> :> -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BL10@cam.ac.uk From pmouse+alpine at nobig5.com Mon Jul 5 22:27:31 2021 From: pmouse+alpine at nobig5.com (Porcelain Mouse) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine 2.24 + all.patch unusable/unbuildable after fedora34 upgrade In-Reply-To: <7d6df4c3-cf7a-91df-6c19-643fdf54b29@yandex.com> References: <05p2s6q-501o-9q98-ssr-o2489311norr@abovt5.pbz> <7d6df4c3-cf7a-91df-6c19-643fdf54b29@yandex.com> Message-ID: <8orn62r6-9s2p-ror5-18o3-ppq9s842p2qp@abovt5.pbz> On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 08:59, Eduardo Chappa wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2021, Porcelain Mouse wrote: > >> There is no libldap on f34, so my old build from f33 segfaults. >> >> But, git master branch + all.patch for 2.24 fails to build, too. Anyone >> else seeing this? Unpatched git master builds successfully, using now. > > from what I understand you are trying to use the *current* code in the > repository, which is currently at version 2.24.2 and the patch for > version 2.24. These two do not match in version. Patches for versions > that contain two dots are under the alpha versions side of my website at > > http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/alpha/info/all.html > > Does this combination work better for you? Thank you. Yes, that works fine. Sorry Eduadro & list members. Seems like, after 25 years, I still cannot remember every step needed. I even keep notes. Seems like using git has only lead to more problems for me with Alpine. It is my preferred workflow, but that means I have to use the patch file and I can never find the right one. I'll make a note to remind myself to stick to the announced releases and to the location of the alpha patches if I violate that rule in the future. -- Porcelain Mouse From jason-alpine-info at shalott.net Mon Jul 5 23:35:03 2021 From: jason-alpine-info at shalott.net (jason-alpine-info@shalott.net) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine 2.24 + all.patch unusable/unbuildable after fedora34 upgrade In-Reply-To: <8orn62r6-9s2p-ror5-18o3-ppq9s842p2qp@abovt5.pbz> References: <05p2s6q-501o-9q98-ssr-o2489311norr@abovt5.pbz> <7d6df4c3-cf7a-91df-6c19-643fdf54b29@yandex.com> <8orn62r6-9s2p-ror5-18o3-ppq9s842p2qp@abovt5.pbz> Message-ID: >> from what I understand you are trying to use the *current* code in >> the repository, which is currently at version 2.24.2 and the patch for >> version 2.24. These two do not match in version. Patches for versions >> that contain two dots are under the alpha versions side of my website >> at >> >> http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/alpha/info/all.html Tangential question: are there currently other streams of Alpine developement such that it makes sense to keep maintaining a collection of patches? It seems to me that Eduardo's development stream is pretty much the only one that's still active. I'm not familiar with the code base or Eduardo's development style, but it seems like it would be easier to just formally integrate all those patches into the main code base (ifdef'd out, if any would be breaking for existing non-patched distributions) and call it a day? Or, if for some reason that's not desirable, maybe have a git branch with all the patches already applied? Just a thought. Thanks again Eduardo for keeping the lights on for Alpine. It has been my sole mailer, for both work and personal, for 25+ years, and I really don't want to imagine a world without it. So thanks for that... Cheers! -Jason From bradcray at hpe.com Tue Jul 6 23:41:06 2021 From: bradcray at hpe.com (Brad Chamberlain) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook Message-ID: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Hi Alpine community and experts ? On a few occasions, I've seen a puzzling behavior that I've brushed aside as being a curiosity. However, tonight it took a frightening turn which is causing me to ask the forum about it. I have a somewhat odd (blasphemous?) usage model with alpine where I use it for 99% of my email reading and writing; yet I typically also keep an Outlook (OWA) tab open in a browser so that if there's a mail that I can handle more efficiently in Outlook, I can jump over there to do so. What I find from time to time is that when I browse certain mails in the Outlook tab (say, ones that require clicking on a link), when I return to my alpine inbox, that message has been sorted as the "most recent" message with a current timestamp even if it was older to begin with. That is the curiosity, and I've always just brushed it aside thinking "eh, whatever...". How things got weird tonight is that such a mail was moved to the bottom of my inbox, and then the subject line and recipients lists for a few of the intervening mails (between where the message had been and where it was now) were incorrect. In one case, the subject line was represented wrong in Outlook, causing me to send off a "hey, you forgot to update your subject line in this mail" message before realizing that the fault was mine. In the second case, I was about to send out a "Why are you mailing this message to these people?" query before realizing that it was so weird that I should double-check it. Viewing both mails in Outlook showed the correct subject line and recipients; and quitting pine and re-opening my mailbox also resolved the issue in alpine. I've been using alpine and Outlook together in this way for years and not had anything as weird as this happen until now. Yet this case was embarrassing enough that I wanted to see whether there was an explanation?or any setting change I could/should make?to cbetter support simultaneously viewing my inbox from alpine and Outlook. FWIW, I use the /loser option on my inbox path because I've never had very good luck sorting by date/time/thread when I don't. Thanks for any thoughts here, -Brad From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Wed Jul 7 10:48:25 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, Brad Chamberlain wrote: > On a few occasions, I've seen a puzzling behavior that I've brushed > aside as being a curiosity. However, tonight it took a frightening turn > which is causing me to ask the forum about it. > [...] Dear Brad, this is more of a "not me" message and some suggestions to look into. First, I have never experienced what you are seeing. I have had Alpine and Outlook (OWA) open and read messages without any type of interference. This sounds a lot like settings in OWA that are affecting IMAP. Here is an experiment you can try next time. Before you reply to a message, mark it deleted in Alpine. Hopefully that will not expunge your message. In my case, it does not. The reason why I tell you that is because Alpine tends to update the full line in the index when you mark a message for deletion. Another thing you can do is to run Alpine with with high imap debug, something like alpine -d imap=4 and see in the ~/.pine-debug1 file if you see anything about expunged messages, saved messages, etc. If you did not start Alpine with the option "-d imap=4" you can still go to the journal from the main screen by pressing "J" and look for the lines that contain the string "IMAP DEBUG", which will tell you what happened in the server. If you do not understand what appears there, send it here and we will take a look at it. which will tell you what happened in the server. If you do not understand what appears there, send it here and we will take a look at it. Thank you -- Eduardo From bradcray at hpe.com Wed Jul 7 21:01:07 2021 From: bradcray at hpe.com (bradcray@hpe.com) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Message-ID: Hi Eduardo ? Thanks for the response and notes. I'm going to keep my eye open for the next instance of this "message reordering" behavior to see whether I can describe what is causing it more faithfully. However, to provide as many details as possible from memory, I believe that: * I see a message in alpine that I decide is better viewed in Outlook. Let's say it's the 10th from the bottom in my inbox when sorted by arrival date. * I pop over to OWA without leaving alpine, search for and find the mail, and then don't reply to it, but take some sort of relatively passive action with it, like clicking on a hyperlink that it contains. * Then I go back to my alpine session and find that it's moved to the final message in my inbox, as though it was most recently arrived. Normally, this reordering causes me to go "huh...", I delete the message and move on. Last night, I started reading the intermediate mails between where the mail had been in my inbox and where it now appeared at the bottom, and they were the ones whose subjects and recipients were mixed up. It seemed as though each had the subject line and/or recipients of the previous mail in my inbox, as though there was some sort of off-by-one error between the mail's header and its body. Anyway, thanks for the tips, and I'll see if I can get better at reproducing it, -Brad On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, Brad Chamberlain wrote: > >> On a few occasions, I've seen a puzzling behavior that I've brushed aside >> as being a curiosity. However, tonight it took a frightening turn which is >> causing me to ask the forum about it. >> [...] > > Dear Brad, > > this is more of a "not me" message and some suggestions to look into. > First, I have never experienced what you are seeing. I have had Alpine and > Outlook (OWA) open and read messages without any type of interference. > This sounds a lot like settings in OWA that are affecting IMAP. > > Here is an experiment you can try next time. Before you reply to a > message, mark it deleted in Alpine. Hopefully that will not expunge your > message. In my case, it does not. The reason why I tell you that is > because Alpine tends to update the full line in the index when you mark a > message for deletion. > > Another thing you can do is to run Alpine with with high imap debug, > something like > > alpine -d imap=4 > > and see in the ~/.pine-debug1 file if you see anything about expunged > messages, saved messages, etc. If you did not start Alpine with the option > "-d imap=4" you can still go to the journal from the main screen by > pressing "J" and look for the lines that contain the string "IMAP DEBUG", > which will tell you what happened in the server. If you do not understand > what appears there, send it here and we will take a look at it. > which will tell you what happened in the server. If you do not understand > what appears there, send it here and we will take a look at it. > > Thank you > > -- > Eduardo > From alpine at eckner.net Wed Jul 7 21:14:28 2021 From: alpine at eckner.net (Erich Eckner) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, bradcray@hpe.com wrote: > > Hi Eduardo ? Hi, > > Thanks for the response and notes. I'm going to keep my eye open for the > next instance of this "message reordering" behavior to see whether I can > describe what is causing it more faithfully. > > However, to provide as many details as possible from memory, I believe that: > > * I see a message in alpine that I decide is better viewed in Outlook. > Let's say it's the 10th from the bottom in my inbox when sorted by > arrival date. > > * I pop over to OWA without leaving alpine, search for and find the > mail, and then don't reply to it, but take some sort of relatively > passive action with it, like clicking on a hyperlink that it contains. > > * Then I go back to my alpine session and find that it's moved to the > final message in my inbox, as though it was most recently arrived. > > Normally, this reordering causes me to go "huh...", I delete the message and > move on. > > Last night, I started reading the intermediate mails between where the mail > had been in my inbox and where it now appeared at the bottom, and they were > the ones whose subjects and recipients were mixed up. It seemed as though > each had the subject line and/or recipients of the previous mail in my inbox, > as though there was some sort of off-by-one error between the mail's header > and its body. I don't know any internals of alpine, but this looks to me, like alpine caches the subject line and then the inbox gets reordered by owa (for a reason, which only microsoft knows), but alpine doesn't notice, that it should invalidate its cache. It looks, like alpine is so certain, that the cache is still valid, that it uses the cached subject line instead of fetching it again, when opening the email. I have seen other interesting (but also more trivial) issues with the subject line cache: When the imap connection breaks, alpine still shows you the messages it knows, other messages are shown with empty subject (which has funny effects if you search for a subject), and opening of any messages fails (because the connection is dead and alpine does not cache the content). Regarding your issue, I think there are two things wrong, here: 1. owa reordering the mailbox 2. alpine not/partially noticing the reordering > > Anyway, thanks for the tips, and I'll see if I can get better at reproducing > it, > -Brad regards, Erich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE3p92iMrPBP64GmxZCu7JB1Xae1oFAmDme6UACgkQCu7JB1Xa e1qmQhAApw2ti1CuMhwneyu60+X+wlCUgrIoDD7JW+W3dViUTbh+tMxOFWXOOVyW yYyW/3yAiEuz4xWU6qcLvynhcqlnBO+KGWxoHoaOJojcloy+6kTioqHvLcQyTmhg QLWaYB3/8YeqLptvc/q32v4klVM3ffUzLOalu1e9w5Lf0Iy1U8pDy8hUJvtO+grr tRiJzHuhvCcOc8uVkUHBVnpS6s7LcTzMlnn8Oll5ZEHs0O5/1sWIzfuHfEnGgGdl CTnNtQCsqzod9JV22WuCee2bMBoXrzUj1J7bGGpILY72y0Az9QQCunIh3OWcEyJi DEUkz17QRs2RmwEQPVlsJ86OCsttSsTbNo4/1gp+bl6kvLusy8RaVaaC0QqCNSwq 2I48O0U1W4rn9bXFDzxD9Z2s4S3BJmB7HbKTMiQ0IPfRKJkkNmF2XeVJwIZHMdK7 mE7IAsGlLxNbRzPFTcPCCQ6B6+GVhw6ESlgjM1sl/mn4uBj23OlDiT75WSs+DBJs +M3MK3QAYVocD9LTG2Rv25rnnZJeVYyrOWVhQWGHHd0Nyfl8VQXMq2/TBA8Oi9Qu B4U7xlpIw4zUVnImJcIYS7EVutDGIeE8C3M/BWfeqXkaaiRVoSB0W0lQad6Kz6ri /qKa7DXBX7siKI0SFBbolVt4lujkJWBpS8vKKYm7weH1lJHUSFM= =Jqw7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bradcray at hpe.com Wed Jul 7 21:34:11 2021 From: bradcray at hpe.com (bradcray@hpe.com) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Message-ID: <2283989-a9af-8b9c-5479-394121f7168@hpe.com> Thanks for your thoughts here, Erich. The caching theory certainly sounds reasonable to me. If anyone knows more about alpine's inner workings and could say whether such a cache exists, and particularly whether there's a way to disable it or make it less aggressive, that might be interesting for me to experiment with. Thanks again, -Brad On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, Erich Eckner wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, bradcray@hpe.com wrote: > >> >> Hi Eduardo ? > > Hi, > >> >> Thanks for the response and notes. I'm going to keep my eye open for the >> next instance of this "message reordering" behavior to see whether I can >> describe what is causing it more faithfully. >> >> However, to provide as many details as possible from memory, I believe >> that: >> >> * I see a message in alpine that I decide is better viewed in Outlook. >> Let's say it's the 10th from the bottom in my inbox when sorted by >> arrival date. >> >> * I pop over to OWA without leaving alpine, search for and find the >> mail, and then don't reply to it, but take some sort of relatively >> passive action with it, like clicking on a hyperlink that it contains. >> >> * Then I go back to my alpine session and find that it's moved to the >> final message in my inbox, as though it was most recently arrived. >> >> Normally, this reordering causes me to go "huh...", I delete the message >> and move on. >> >> Last night, I started reading the intermediate mails between where the mail >> had been in my inbox and where it now appeared at the bottom, and they were >> the ones whose subjects and recipients were mixed up. It seemed as though >> each had the subject line and/or recipients of the previous mail in my >> inbox, as though there was some sort of off-by-one error between the mail's >> header and its body. > > I don't know any internals of alpine, but this looks to me, like alpine > caches the subject line and then the inbox gets reordered by owa (for a > reason, which only microsoft knows), but alpine doesn't notice, that it > should invalidate its cache. It looks, like alpine is so certain, that the > cache is still valid, that it uses the cached subject line instead of > fetching it again, when opening the email. > > I have seen other interesting (but also more trivial) issues with the subject > line cache: When the imap connection breaks, alpine still shows you the > messages it knows, other messages are shown with empty subject (which has > funny effects if you search for a subject), and opening of any > messages fails (because the connection is dead and alpine does not cache the > content). > > Regarding your issue, I think there are two things wrong, here: > > 1. owa reordering the mailbox > 2. alpine not/partially noticing the reordering > >> >> Anyway, thanks for the tips, and I'll see if I can get better at >> reproducing it, >> -Brad > > regards, > Erich > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE3p92iMrPBP64GmxZCu7JB1Xae1oFAmDme6UACgkQCu7JB1Xa > e1qmQhAApw2ti1CuMhwneyu60+X+wlCUgrIoDD7JW+W3dViUTbh+tMxOFWXOOVyW > yYyW/3yAiEuz4xWU6qcLvynhcqlnBO+KGWxoHoaOJojcloy+6kTioqHvLcQyTmhg > QLWaYB3/8YeqLptvc/q32v4klVM3ffUzLOalu1e9w5Lf0Iy1U8pDy8hUJvtO+grr > tRiJzHuhvCcOc8uVkUHBVnpS6s7LcTzMlnn8Oll5ZEHs0O5/1sWIzfuHfEnGgGdl > CTnNtQCsqzod9JV22WuCee2bMBoXrzUj1J7bGGpILY72y0Az9QQCunIh3OWcEyJi > DEUkz17QRs2RmwEQPVlsJ86OCsttSsTbNo4/1gp+bl6kvLusy8RaVaaC0QqCNSwq > 2I48O0U1W4rn9bXFDzxD9Z2s4S3BJmB7HbKTMiQ0IPfRKJkkNmF2XeVJwIZHMdK7 > mE7IAsGlLxNbRzPFTcPCCQ6B6+GVhw6ESlgjM1sl/mn4uBj23OlDiT75WSs+DBJs > +M3MK3QAYVocD9LTG2Rv25rnnZJeVYyrOWVhQWGHHd0Nyfl8VQXMq2/TBA8Oi9Qu > B4U7xlpIw4zUVnImJcIYS7EVutDGIeE8C3M/BWfeqXkaaiRVoSB0W0lQad6Kz6ri > /qKa7DXBX7siKI0SFBbolVt4lujkJWBpS8vKKYm7weH1lJHUSFM= > =Jqw7 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Wed Jul 7 21:37:07 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> Message-ID: <4d8bc014-a994-2ce-85ca-74c0e0f3349a@yandex.com> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, Erich Eckner wrote: > Regarding your issue, I think there are two things wrong, here: > > 1. owa reordering the mailbox Maybe the folder is sorted by "last seen" message? > 2. alpine not/partially noticing the reordering This all depends on what Alpine receives from the server, and until this is disclosed, we can only imagine what is happening, like I am imagining that the server is sorting by last seen, rather than last arrived. -- Eduardo From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Wed Jul 7 21:44:26 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Scrambling Alpine's inbox from Outlook In-Reply-To: <2283989-a9af-8b9c-5479-394121f7168@hpe.com> References: <4e653170-ac11-872e-b54b-19ddf05692e3@hpe.com> <2283989-a9af-8b9c-5479-394121f7168@hpe.com> Message-ID: <8ace3fb-bb67-335-4b14-e7ab4281c4dc@yandex.com> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, bradcray@hpe.com wrote: > Thanks for your thoughts here, Erich. The caching theory certainly > sounds reasonable to me. If anyone knows more about alpine's inner > workings and could say whether such a cache exists, and particularly > whether there's a way to disable it or make it less aggressive, that > might be interesting for me to experiment with. Did you see I told you to mark a message deleted? try that and see what happens. Of course, undelete it later. In my case I can do that without losing the message. Since your server is behaving weirdly, I do not know how effective that will be. -- Eduardo From poobah at ruptured-duck.com Sat Jul 17 04:59:11 2021 From: poobah at ruptured-duck.com (Bob Bernstein) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Include sender's sig in reply? Message-ID: I don't recall any setting that removes the signature of the original to which I am replying. Is that default behaviour? Can it be defeated? Sometimes the sig is the best part of a mail, especially on some very techy lists, where most of the discussion is over my head anyway, but every once in awhile I want to say to a poster, "Hey, great sig!" Thanks, -- ...a society must incorporate the rationalizing power symbolized by scientific knowledge, for otherwise it will be a fatally split society- split between a powerful elite and the disenfranchised mass. To this we add now: an irrational elite is the most dangerous of all. Holton, Gerald. 1985. On the Integrity of Science: The Issues Since Bronowski. Leonardo 18 (4), Special Issue: Jacob Bronowski: A Retrospective (1985): 229-232. From schamane at fam.tuwien.ac.at Sat Jul 17 05:26:57 2021 From: schamane at fam.tuwien.ac.at (Andreas Schamanek) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Include sender's sig in reply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021, at 07:59, Bob Bernstein wrote: > I don't recall any setting that removes the signature of the original to > which I am replying. Is that default behaviour? Can it be defeated? The setting can be found in the configuration menu as "Strip From Sigdashes on Reply". In the .pinerc file the keyword is strip-from-sigdashes-on-reply. > Sometimes the sig is the best part of a mail, especially on some > very techy lists, where most of the discussion is over my head > anyway, but every once in awhile I want to say to a poster, "Hey, > great sig!" I know :) Alpine can do this. Quoting from the help of above setting: If "Full Header" mode is enabled and turned on, then Alpine will include the text beyond the special line regardless of the setting of this feature. -- -- Andreas :-) From poobah at ruptured-duck.com Sat Jul 17 06:24:26 2021 From: poobah at ruptured-duck.com (Bob Bernstein) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Include sender's sig in reply? In-Reply-To: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> References: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> Message-ID: <36s722s2-q513-p6qp-n63-qss3r989ssqp@ehcgherq-qhpx.pbz> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021, Andreas Schamanek wrote: > The setting can be found in the configuration menu as "Strip > From Sigdashes on Reply". Ah. So it seems -- from reading the help for that command -- that command -- that since I want sigdashes to be the default, that when I see a signature in a post to which I want to respond, I just have to go turn off Enable Sigdashes for that one message 'til I'm through crafting my reply. Sorry. What an awful sentence. I'm over-tired. Thanks! -- ...a society must incorporate the rationalizing power symbolized by scientific knowledge, for otherwise it will be a fatally split society- split between a powerful elite and the disenfranchised mass. To this we add now: an irrational elite is the most dangerous of all. Holton, Gerald. 1985. On the Integrity of Science: The Issues Since Bronowski. Leonardo 18 (4), Special Issue: Jacob Bronowski: A Retrospective (1985): 229-232. From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sat Jul 17 07:41:54 2021 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Include sender's sig in reply? In-Reply-To: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> References: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> Message-ID: <63537683-533d-443b-6c8e-1e1a62eff65b@yandex.com> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021, Andreas Schamanek wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021, at 07:59, Bob Bernstein wrote: > >> I don't recall any setting that removes the signature of the original >> to which I am replying. Is that default behaviour? Can it be defeated? > > The setting can be found in the configuration menu as "Strip From > Sigdashes on Reply". In the .pinerc file the keyword is > strip-from-sigdashes-on-reply. In addition to a global variable that controls this behavior for ALL messages, you can customize it for a "per message" option. In order to do that, there is a configuration option [X] Alternate Reply Menu Once this option is enabled, after you press "R" for reply, you will see a menu in the bottom. One of the options is " S No Strip", which means that if I press "S" at that moment, Alpine will NOT strip the signature from the message, but if I do not press "S", it will (Alpine will do what the menu says if you press the corresponding key.) I find options like this also useful with other options. For example, one of the options in the configuration screen is to include attachments when you reply. This can become an issue if the attachments are large and you really do not want to include them in the reply, since this contributes to a delay in starting your reply. In this case, I have disabled that feature and use the "A Inc Attach" option in the menu to include them if I need to. Of course I forget that I need to do that, so typically I tend to do this twice. The second time, I press "A" after starting the reply. It is usually fast, instead of having the delay every time I reply to a message and manually removing the attachments from the message. That's the point of the alternate reply command. I hope this helps. -- Eduardo From poobah at ruptured-duck.com Sat Jul 17 10:30:43 2021 From: poobah at ruptured-duck.com (Bob Bernstein) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Include sender's sig in reply? In-Reply-To: <63537683-533d-443b-6c8e-1e1a62eff65b@yandex.com> References: <92a824fa-43d7-f6e9-ea60-28533f7a57c0@fam.tuwien.ac.at> <63537683-533d-443b-6c8e-1e1a62eff65b@yandex.com> Message-ID: <12p688sr-qn8q-61pr-prn9-7po8qqo6p7r@ehcgherq-qhpx.pbz> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021, Eduardo Chappa wrote: > [X] Alternate Reply Menu Thank you Eduardo. Now I am a happy camper. I should've known alpine had a built-in way of meeting my need for using Sigdashes as a rule, but easily trading that in on a message-by-message basis for no-strip. Excelsior! -- ...a society must incorporate the rationalizing power symbolized by scientific knowledge, for otherwise it will be a fatally split society- split between a powerful elite and the disenfranchised mass. To this we add now: an irrational elite is the most dangerous of all. Holton, Gerald. 1985. On the Integrity of Science: The Issues Since Bronowski. Leonardo 18 (4), Special Issue: Jacob Bronowski: A Retrospective (1985): 229-232. From ethan.hack at newcastle.ac.uk Wed Jul 28 08:37:07 2021 From: ethan.hack at newcastle.ac.uk (Ethan Hack) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: If your email is via Office 365, you ought to be able to use IMAP. Back in 2014 Newcastle University switched from a local Exchange server to Office 365. Earlier, after I switched from Cyrus to the local Exchange server in 2009, I used Davmail successfully because our IT service deprecated IMAP. However, when we switched to Office 365 they told me it was fine to use IMAP and gave me access that way (server outlook.office365.com)! Regards, Ethan Hack On 04/07/2021 18:08, Barry Landy wrote: > ? External sender. Take care when opening links or attachments. Do not provide your login details. > > My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional > IMAP server. > > Can I use Alpine for this access? > > It looks like I can set it up starting with S U but because it's a once > for all change I dont want to be left without Alpine access. > > Using alpine 2.23.2 on windows 10 (x64) > > -- > Barry Landy??????????????????????? Home:??????? +44-1223-570417 > 192, Gilbert Road????????????????? College:???? +44-1223-362062 > Cambridge CB4 3PB????????????????? Efax:??????? +44-870-458-0205 > England??????????????????????????? Email??????? BL10@cam.ac.uk > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman12.u.washington.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Falpine-info&data=04%7C01%7CEthan.Hack%40newcastle.ac.uk%7Cc6628d4e84dd4e9504b208d93f0ef05b%7C9c5012c9b61644c2a91766814fbe3e87%7C1%7C0%7C637610155955689333%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Va%2B2l%2FZCTxS6fMzOATbavWf487%2FDmZivol%2B68nzB9E4%3D&reserved=0 -- Dr Ethan Hack (he/him) Biology, School of Natural and Environmental Sciences Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU, UK From bl10 at cam.ac.uk Wed Jul 28 09:12:51 2021 From: bl10 at cam.ac.uk (Barry Landy) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:29:18 2022 Subject: [Alpine-info] Exchange In-Reply-To: References: <47f2b024-e8ad-dfbc-f837-555f46f17f14@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <384b763b-cd64-e48-63ed-afb56dd81267@cam.ac.uk> "ought to be able" indeed. However the IT people in our University have decided that the IMAP implementation in Exchange is unsafe (no real surprise, Microsoft are always bad at implementing standard protocols no doubt to get people to use their own proprietory ones) and do not allow IMAP access to their server. I tried and failed to setup davmail (and the same IT people said it is very slow) so I have switch to a different email provider. On Wed, 28 Jul 2021, Ethan Hack wrote: :>If your email is via Office 365, you ought to be able to use IMAP. Back in :>2014 Newcastle University switched from a local Exchange server to Office 365. :>Earlier, after I switched from Cyrus to the local Exchange server in 2009, I :>used Davmail successfully because our IT service deprecated IMAP. However, :>when we switched to Office 365 they told me it was fine to use IMAP and gave :>me access that way (server outlook.office365.com)! :> :>Regards, :> :>Ethan Hack :> :>On 04/07/2021 18:08, Barry Landy wrote: :> :>> ? External sender. Take care when opening links or attachments. Do not :>> provide your login details. :>> :>> My ISP (university) wishes me to change to Exchange from a traditional :>> IMAP server. :>> :>> Can I use Alpine for this access? :>> :>> It looks like I can set it up starting with S U but because it's a once :>> for all change I dont want to be left without Alpine access. :>> :>> Using alpine 2.23.2 on windows 10 (x64) :>> :>> -- :>> Barry Landy??????????????????????? Home:??????? +44-1223-570417 :>> 192, Gilbert Road????????????????? College:???? +44-1223-362062 :>> Cambridge CB4 3PB????????????????? Efax:??????? +44-870-458-0205 :>> England??????????????????????????? Email??????? BL10@cam.ac.uk :>> _______________________________________________ :>> Alpine-info mailing list :>> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu :>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman12.u.washington.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Falpine-info&data=04%7C01%7CEthan.Hack%40newcastle.ac.uk%7Cc6628d4e84dd4e9504b208d93f0ef05b%7C9c5012c9b61644c2a91766814fbe3e87%7C1%7C0%7C637610155955689333%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Va%2B2l%2FZCTxS6fMzOATbavWf487%2FDmZivol%2B68nzB9E4%3D&reserved=0 :> :> -- PLEASE NOTE MY NEW EMAIL (bl10@cam will still work) Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Cambridge CB4 3PB Efax: +44-870-458-0205 England Email BarryLandy@cantab.net